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Built a scanner? Started to build a scanner? Record your progress here. Doesn't need to be a whole scanner - triggers and other parts are fine. Commercial scanners are fine too.

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daniel_reetz
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by daniel_reetz »

There's a lot to talk about here, and in time we'll get to it. But one thing I think you should start researching, before filing, is the new Open Source Hardware movement. If you share your ideas as Open Source, in the most negative, ugliest case you can shrewdly ride the press and goodwill engendered by this new movement (which is substantial), and in the best case everyone ever can benefit and you'll make good money (seriously, we both know that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who just won't bother building these things -- that's your market). Open Source hardware is already generating millions in profit for smart people who want to sell things but don't feel trapped by the old model. It is only going to get bigger and more powerful. It is also inevitable, because Open designs are always more powerful, flexible, and enabling than closed ones. If this community proves anything, it proves that.

Open Source Hardware has, even in these early stages, proven to be a highly successful, efficient, and profitable model, which lets you have it both ways. I hope you'll consider it, at least as a starting point. There's nothing saying you can't go closed later with a new design if you find the Open Source approach unprofitable. And frankly, if you start aggressively patenting before even trying to be Open and Free, don't be surprised when another version, with Free ideas and Open Source principles, comes along and steamrolls you. IMO If you're going to build the future of bookscanning, it makes fuckall sense to adopt the busted dinosaur model of intellectual "property". After all, you probably wouldn't be here if we hadn't all shared. And no one here lacks for credit or recognition.

In short, you have a serious opportunity to innovate, not just in hardware, but in your business model. I think it's compelling enough to investigate before you irrevocably lock up your ideas.
univurshul
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by univurshul »

At the end of the day I'm really more concerned with what's been accomplished. locking the idea(s) into stone is premature indeed.

I've been going through a creative burst in my life right now. Grappling with legal road blocks is a distraction to say the least.
Last edited by Anonymous on 10 Oct 2010, 13:00, edited 1 time in total.
univurshul
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by univurshul »

...Open source it is. Open source it will be.

I built this thing with flexibility in mind. Building a moat around it is counterintuitive.

Some guidance on securing this for the community is appreciated; one would think it'll cost less than a traditional patent I hope.

Let's do this.
spamsickle
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by spamsickle »

I guess it would probably be obvious if I went back and read through slowly, and I'll probably do that some time, but I'm unclear -- are those pictures of the same device in multiple configurations, or are they multiple devices? ETA: Never mind, I read slowly, single device. That's impressive!

I don't know why you were getting glare problems with the 90 degree setup; it seems to me that the lights come straight down, reflect off one side of the platen, bounce over to the other side of the platen, and go straight back up again. The light that scatters off the page in transit gives you a good image, but I haven't seen a problem with specular glare in this configuration.

That said, I think there is a place for the wide-angle platen, for the "throw away" reason you mentioned: it gives you better coverage of the inner margins in some books. I haven't actually built a unit which takes advantage of it, but I've played around with opening books at different angles to see how much of the inner margin I can see, and some of them definitely do better if they're open wider. My Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, has "topic headings" in the margins, and the way it's bound I'd probably need hydraulics forcing the platen down to completely photograph some of those interior margins in the middle of the book with a 90 degree setup. I had thought about letting it lie flat, and photograph it with a single camera from above, then give Tulon's dewarping software a workout, but it might work with a 130 degree setup too. I think I'd still need to mount the camera "high" so it could peer into the crevice, which would necessitate keystone correction at a minimum and probably dewarping too, but it might save the encyclopedia (and similar books) from the ScanSnap.
Last edited by spamsickle on 08 Oct 2010, 14:09, edited 1 time in total.
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daniel_reetz
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by daniel_reetz »

Some guidance on securing this for the community is appreciated; one would think it'll cost less than a traditional patent I hope.
I'll support you all the way. I have good lawyerly contacts who can help -- people who deal specifically with patents and IP protection. I also have a zillion open source connections who'd love to hear about your design going into production.
jeffr
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by jeffr »

From my very limited knowledge of patent law, you have already
started protecting yourself by making these posts. If you publish
all of the details, you will have established "prior art", which will
inhibit any patent application of the same thing. What is left is
protecting variations from being patented. This is where my patent
knowledge is not sufficient to give you a good answer. If you patent
your design, you make claims which will cover certain variations
on your design ("which will be clear to those practiced in the art").
To the extent that those claims are successful in your patent, you
will have protected yourself from others patenting variations that you
covered. What I don't know is whether or not making such claims in
a publication (like http://www.diybookscanner.org), without actually "reducing
them to practice" (i.e., building them) is sufficient "prior art" to inhibit
others from patenting the variations. Perhaps this is something Dan's
lawyer contacts could comment on.
univurshul
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by univurshul »

spamsickle wrote:... glare problems with the 90 degree setup... I haven't seen a problem with specular glare in this configuration.
It's true that there are well appropriated systems that avoid opposing pane reflections, you likely have one. But it is more the book pages themselves that contribute to glare/reflection/hotspot issues, or the images on the pages and opposing pages and what predominant colors exist on each page. Page luster and saturation is another determining factor as well (more on this later). It is also beyond the scope of just lights, their lumens, and how they hit the pane. Also depends on the cameras, their capabilities to shoot in ambient light, etc. Opposing pages with white margins +text/image bodies generally have no issues with opposing page reflections at 90. In theory, an entire library can be scanned without ever experiencing an issue. A significant upside to 90 is that the distance the user turns the page is shorter, ergo faster. 90 scanning is faster than 130. The two angled modes to scan books on SAllAƧ attempt to reap the benefits inherit to both scanning approaches.

There is also a hidden angle to scan on SAllAƧ. It is between 90 and 130. It is built in, inherit to the design. This is an interesting idea that suggests shooting pages intentionally at a keystone. This came about after I tried scanning some especially challenging material where the luster paper exhibited 'hot spots' under the platens for varying reasons I'll get into later. After many different attempts to neutralize the field--albeit light positioning, platen angle, etc., the most interesting finding was that the camera was fielding a much better image after it was no longer head-on over the target image. Shooting intentionally with a keystone is something I thought would never be a logical idea, but I'm beginning to consider all cards on the table, especially since the new software is crushing our old ideas of what's possible.

There are also antiglare platen options, but my primary direction is utilizing the highest transmissive materials first.
spamsickle wrote:..I had thought about letting it lie flat, and photograph it with a single camera from above, then give Tulon's dewarping software a workout, but it might work with a 130 degree setup too. I think I'd still need to mount the camera "high" so it could peer into the crevice...
Absolutely. This is why I'm implementing the "Djinni" build as a new attachment into SAllAƧ as a 4th/5th Scan mode option. Djinni was started as an idea for a hybrid copy-stand with a memory foam cradle + flat glass platen
(http://www.diybookscanner.org/forum/vie ... inni#p4951) Will1384 has actually built one in the spirit of an i2S Copibook. I suggested he try the foam route, and here's what he made from it: http://www.diybookscanner.org/forum/vie ... emory+foam (actually, you commented on this build, Spam, never mind--a refresher for other readers)

The similarities between Djinni and SAllAƧ at its 180 scan mode would make a natural pairing. And by the time Scan Tailor is auto-dewarping, the hardware features of Djinni would nicely compliment this option.
Last edited by Anonymous on 08 Oct 2010, 17:10, edited 3 times in total.
univurshul
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by univurshul »

jeffr wrote:From my very limited knowledge of patent law, you have already
started protecting yourself by making these posts...
I suppose there's a degree of anxiety that occurs when you are passionate about something and it's outcome; the desire to control it, the fear of losing it, the risks associated, etc.

I have since exercised those unnecessary demons.
Last edited by Anonymous on 10 Oct 2010, 13:02, edited 1 time in total.
StevePoling
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by StevePoling »

daniel_reetz wrote:Umm, I think you should share with us your specific patent claims, because some of us don't want anything to do with patented technologies. Certainly I don't mind you protecting your design, but it should be made very clear to the community what you're preventing others (meaning anyone, even commercial entities) from using.
I don't want to distract from what's a clearly excellent built. But there is a case against patents as explained here http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp. If I understand the law correctly (IANAL), the mere publishing your ideas in a public forum (such as this one), constitutes "prior art" so that no eeeeevil corporation can scoop up what you've done then patent it. If you later want to become an eeeeevil corporation yourself, the patent will give you the right to shake down your competitors. And prior art provides defense against eeeeevil corporations going after you. However, legal fees usually make this a negative sum game.

If you have learned something killer and new in your design, and want to keep it out of the hands of individual hobbyists such as ourselves, then trade secret protection may be better than patent protection. I believe the existence of a patent does not prevent me (as an individual hobbyist) from implementing the ideas inherent within any patent. The original intent of the patent system was to get inventors to open up trade secrets so that others could build upon them (but not profit from them).
StevePoling
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Re: Scanner Build: "SAL|˩AƧ" by Univurshul

Post by StevePoling »

univurshul wrote:Shooting intentionally with a keystone is something I thought would never be a logical idea, but I'm beginning to consider all cards on the table, especially since the new software is crushing our old ideas of what's possible.
This summer I vacationed in England and there were two occasions (C.S. Lewis' pub, and Albert Einstein's office) where I wanted to photograph a picture hanging on the wall in a room where I felt the need for a flash. So, I took pictures off-axis with the intent of deskewing (dekeystoning?) them when I got home. I haven't gotten around to doing that last bit.
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