Daniel Reetz, the founder of the DIY Book Scanner community, has recently started making videos of prototyping and shop tips. If you are tinkering with a book scanner (or any other project) in your home shop, these tips will come in handy. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn0gq8 ... g_8K1nfInQ

Copyright in posting PDF samples

A place to tell us about your work and projects. Self-links encouraged!
User avatar
daniel_reetz
Posts: 2785
Joined: 03 Jun 2009, 13:56
E-book readers owned: Used to have a PRS-500
Number of books owned: 600
Country: United States
Contact:

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by daniel_reetz » 22 Feb 2010, 10:21

StevePoling wrote:I should be able to ask the Feds whether a copyright has been renewed and get a definitive answer. One should not have to track down the harder-to-find party to the transaction.
As I understand it, that's what forum member BVaradi is working on -- the Durationator.

User avatar
Misty
Posts: 481
Joined: 06 Nov 2009, 12:20
Number of books owned: 0
Location: Frozen Wasteland

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by Misty » 22 Feb 2010, 10:45

Thanks for the information on that, Rob - I'm not too clear on what the US laws for these things are, so it's helpful to know. In this case, the book is actually by a US national - I'm 99% sure Kjelgaard was American. The reason I was bringing up Canadian law is because I'm pretty sure he's out of copyright in Canada regardless of his American PD status. I was pretty sure the server is hosted in the US, but wanted to check whether it was American copyright we were going by for what we can post.
daniel_reetz wrote:As I understand it, that's what forum member BVaradi is working on -- the Durationator.
Now that looks excellent. I'm really glad to see a site like this existing.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights.

benjamin
Posts: 58
Joined: 04 Mar 2014, 00:53

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by benjamin » 24 Feb 2010, 07:22

Sorry to show up late for the party, things have been crazy at work. This is exactly the issue we work on, and our scanner is being used to digitize copyright records which will be integrated into our software which seeks to help lay users find answers to these questions.

Some quick, unsatisfying answers:

- the 10 page thing is a myth, it's like all the musicians who think there's a certain number of bars or notes. Fair use is a fact-heavy analysis, which looks at the work itself, how it's being used, how much of it is being used, and what that does to the potential market. That's all layed out in 17 USC 107. One of the tests for how much can be used is whether it constitutes the "heart of the work." In one famous case, The Nation was not protected by fair use when they published 300 words from a book by President Ford, which happened to be the big reveal that everyone wanted to know about.

- copyright on the Internet is heinously complicated, largely unresolved, and depends in part on treaty agreements. there's very little precedent in this area, and nobody seems to be making much headway in getting resolution. that's why the pirate bay gets sued in its home country. in theory they could get sued here but the question is whether any judgment against them could be enforced (that's where the Australian Make approach comes in). it gets weird, fast. my boss wants me to write a paper on this but i'm scared to get too deep in, may never emerge...

- editions: this isn't my area of expertise, but my understanding is that this largely comes from derivative work issues. specifically, if you have an early volume of a work in the public domain and there are later versions that are still in copyright; the early version is still in the public domain. this mostly comes up with new translations (which can be protected even if the original has been in the PD forever). in weird cases where you have a later work in the PD while the original isn't (like foreign editions), you're back in weird treaty analysis land.

- gutenberg's Rule 6 isn't bad, but GATT isn't universal, there are a bunch of other factors to consider. also, see where it says "non-renewal is the hard part to demonstrate?" that's what our book scanner's gonna fix.

Ethically, I can't advise you on what to do in this situation. If you guys have works you think might be in the public domain based on the age of the work/author death date, PM me and we can do extensive analysis to tell you whether it's in the clear. If you think you might have a fair use application, I can try to work on that too but responses may take a little longer (information I can give out on my own, advice has to go through a bunch of other channels).

Misty- if you PM me the complete info on your book I'll see what I can do, but you should all be aware that scanning non-PD material at all could raise liability issues depending on how you plan to use it. Unfortunately that's a much longer conversation and one that I'm probably not allowed to have- at least, not without a lot more professional insurance!

User avatar
daniel_reetz
Posts: 2785
Joined: 03 Jun 2009, 13:56
E-book readers owned: Used to have a PRS-500
Number of books owned: 600
Country: United States
Contact:

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by daniel_reetz » 24 Feb 2010, 09:15

Gawd, I love this forum, the information it offers, and the way it doesn't create or even suggest a lawyer-client relationship with Benjamin.
:D :D :D

User avatar
Misty
Posts: 481
Joined: 06 Nov 2009, 12:20
Number of books owned: 0
Location: Frozen Wasteland

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by Misty » 24 Feb 2010, 12:41

Thanks, Benjamin. It's good to get input from someone who really has a lot of knowledge on this! I definitely know that there's liability with scanning non-PD material; in this case I'm not going to go ahead with scanning it.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights.

User avatar
daniel_reetz
Posts: 2785
Joined: 03 Jun 2009, 13:56
E-book readers owned: Used to have a PRS-500
Number of books owned: 600
Country: United States
Contact:

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by daniel_reetz » 24 Feb 2010, 12:43

Misty wrote:in this case I'm not going to go ahead with scanning it.
*sheds a tear*

benjamin
Posts: 58
Joined: 04 Mar 2014, 00:53

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by benjamin » 24 Feb 2010, 13:49

As far as I'm concerned you're all building very unusual end tables.

Oh, speaking of alternative uses, it looks like our scanner is going to be in an art show- it's a warehouse thing celebrating robots & automata! Will post pics when it happens.

In all seriousness, if any of you have fair use questions, hit me up and I'll see about connecting you with the right people/answers. It's is a funky area of the law, lots of bizarro exceptions, lots of little guys winning out over big; lots of theories from trademark kind of grafted on...

...and don't forget you can also always just ask the rights owner for permission.

StevePoling
Posts: 290
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 12:19
E-book readers owned: SONY PRS-505, Kindle DX
Number of books owned: 9999
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by StevePoling » 24 Feb 2010, 20:48

The matter of fair use is something we probably have to understand to stay on the right side of the law. I know that fair use is a construct of case law that's been recognized by the Supremes, but I don't know where the sharp edges and boundaries are so I reason from a few facts that I hope are pertinent:

1) Somehow public libraries are not sued into oblivion despite the fact that they make Xerox machines available to the public, and they charge the public for their use.

2) Somehow the FBI doesn't bust my door down when I Tivo a broadcast TV show, burn a DVD therefrom, and lend it to a friend.

3) Same thing back in the '70s when I recorded my vinyl LPs to cassette.

I'd be willing to bet that these rules would not pertain where I making money by scanning copyrighted books. I have scanned a couple copyrighted works, but I have neither distributed them to anyone nor do I intend to. I think it'd be worth the trouble to get a JD to bless the distribution of scanned copyrighted works to friends and family.

Arguing from the other side, I'm pretty sure Disney, et al. could construe book scanning to be a form of "format shifting" and try to get it prohibited that way.

User avatar
Misty
Posts: 481
Joined: 06 Nov 2009, 12:20
Number of books owned: 0
Location: Frozen Wasteland

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by Misty » 01 Mar 2010, 11:39

daniel_reetz wrote:
Misty wrote:in this case I'm not going to go ahead with scanning it.
*sheds a tear*
Don't worry, I'm not giving up! I'd like to go ahead with something else. While I'm still reasonably confident in being able to legally distribute the book within Canada, my reason for scanning it would be to share it and provide an example of output from my setup. Using an encumbered book doesn't make much sense - I'll get more utility out of doing something that's more widely PD, or that I have permission to do.

I'm going to be working soon on a recent book we have full copyright permission to use. The digital copy we have looks like it might be an older revision, so it might be worth shooting the final published book with the camera and Scan-Tailoring it. If so, it should provide an ideal example given that we have permission from the copyright holders. There's also another set of books we have permission to use that could work well if that one doesn't work out.

Steve:
1) Somehow public libraries are not sued into oblivion despite the fact that they make Xerox machines available to the public, and they charge the public for their use.
I don't know what the situation in the US is, and whether or not that's similar to Canada. At the recent Ontario Library Association conference, there was a session on copyright that was talking about this specifically. The speaker mentioned that there's a specific notice that's been approved by the courts that many libraries have been putting up, notifying users that they are responsible for using the photocopier within the law, and that the library merely provides the photocopier without endorsing any specific uses.

Canada's Fair Dealing is a lot more limited than US Fair Use (which I'm not necessarily happy about), so it's equally possible that this is less of an issue under US law and that more patron photocopies are going to be legal. It's a bit ironic that Canada has so much more sensible copyright terms, unpublished works mess aside, but our fair use equivalent is much more restrictive.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights.

StevePoling
Posts: 290
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 12:19
E-book readers owned: SONY PRS-505, Kindle DX
Number of books owned: 9999
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Contact:

Re: Copyright in posting PDF samples

Post by StevePoling » 01 Mar 2010, 15:29

Misty wrote:At the recent Ontario Library Association conference, there was a session on copyright that was talking about this specifically. The speaker mentioned that there's a specific notice that's been approved by the courts that many libraries have been putting up, notifying users that they are responsible for using the photocopier within the law, and that the library merely provides the photocopier without endorsing any specific uses.
I think that lacking any specific legal direction one way or another, that's what we ought to do with our bookscanners. If I put my scanner in a co-op or library, the public should be able to use it like a Xerox machine.

My daughter writes that some libraries at Oxford are completely unreasonable in their lending policies. She told me that she found stuff she needed, got hassled by petty bureaucrats, then emailed her old prof to send her the same thing from the University of Michigan online archives. This only happened because her camera batteries were dead.

Post Reply